A 4e Actual PlaySo, over on theRPGsite, there's a
brand new thread where we see what for me is the best-written actual play I've seen of one of the 4e demos.
The highlites:
1. It confirms what was one of my primary concerns: power creep. 1st level characters each start with what the poster describes as about 8 "superpowers". Apparently, in the demo
none of the player characters ever bothered to make a regular attack, not even once. Why bother, when their "at will" powers were always better? When something called "Mighty Cleaving" or "Lance of Faith" are first level at-will abilities, you kind of know the game is going to be a powergaming monstrosity.
2. The game certainly does seem to encourage "team" tactics; from the description it seems that players depended on one another immensely. But again, from the description it sounded like certain players (including the writer of the thread) spent most of their time doing some kind of "aid" role to the other players. This isn't necessarily bad, but it doesn't entirely resolve the supposed problem of "someone has to bite the bullet and play the cleric".
3. The game will apparently be impossible to play without some kind of miniatures. Everything depends on positioning, on "squares", and if you're one of those gaming groups that doesn't like using a battlemat and squares and minis, then you're shit out of luck. But hey, we all knew that one was coming.
So to be fair, let's look at the ultimate good and bad from that post:
The ultimate good: "Overall, I enjoyed myself quite a bit"
The ultimate bad: "I did feel that the system took me out of character somewhat. I felt I
was moving a piece in a minis game and not playing a character in a
fight for his life."
RPGPundit
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Comments (10)
i think you are missing the important part: All you do is choosing between the powers. You aren´t doing anything else. Took me three months to see how de-protagonizing that is, at least in B9S.
So, Seattle plays your character. Positioning is actually also not your choice, as you just move were it´s best/required for the power you use.
The only meaningful decision is to decide on the moment you use your daily power.
OK, that does it. One pre-order cancelled. While I quite enjoy tactical miniature combat games, I don't need another one right now.
>>All you do is choosing between the powers
As opposed to what? Basic attack, basic attack, basic attack?
As for RPGPundit:
1. Powergaming: I think this concern is overblown. Power is relative. If I have 4hp and do 2 damage, monsters have 2 hp and do 1 damage, it's exactly equivalent to if I have 8hp do 4 damage and monsters have 4 hp and do 2 damage. Wizards, for instance, seem to have lots of HP now but in my experience they die in 2 hits, maybe 3 if they're lucky on the damage rolls. This is slightly more than 3.X and before (they would die in one hit, but then again so would a fighter if the opponent Crits), but this is part of their philosophy that random one hit kills suck and that it's better if the players get to recuperate from a mistake by rewriting their strategy, rather than get a TPK the second they goof.
At-wills are your basic attacks. So what? To me, it's just as if instead of one basic attack you had different basics depending on what you want to do. Other systems have things like that (I remember playing Tribe 8, for instance, where you had different maneuvers you could do in melee). These things already existed in D&D (full defense, charge, etc) and in fact these particular options still exist in the general case, but now characters have class specific basic attack options. The 'basic attack' now only exists because some powers grant them (one of the Warlord at-wills, for instance, makes your ally do a basic melee attack that adds the Warlord's INT bonus to the damage roll).
2. The Cleric problem: You'll notice that most of the 'aid ally' powers are coupled with an attack. So if the 'leader' character (buffer, cleric, whatever) still spends his actions helping his friends, it doesn't take him away from the action. For instance, Healing Word is a minor action, so you can do it on your turn AND attack.
3. D&D was always miniatures centric (early AD&D had measurements in inches, not feet). Miniatures-less D&D is merely a very common variant. And words I've heard is that it's still as valid a variant in 4E as under 3.X (though to be fair, in 3.X we really quickly graduated to graph paper and battle diagrams, so YMMV). For the first time in my life I've grabbed a collection of minis for my upcoming 4E campaign, but only because I had already grown tired of the confusion of miniature-less play in 3.X, and I think the minis look cool. And I'll admit it, if they came up with good (and cheap) Shadowrun/Conspiracy X/Call of Cthulhu/other modern-type minis, I would probably not go back to mini-less gaming again. Even in games that aren't as centred on tactical gameplay as D&D, minis get rid of a lot of inconveniences.
DarkAngel´s revisionist history and "twelve year old"-style understanding of AD&D is trite, boring and unoriginal. Oh, and it´s wrong too!
Maybe if I say it slowly, it´s easier for you to chisel along:
All you do, is choose between five-eight options. Every time. This choice is hollow, most of the time. You are not saying what your character does. You know, like, roleplaying.
It´s basically the same difference as between a FPS and WoW: In a FPS, you actually aim at pixels and shoot them. In WoW, you click an attack routine button and watch.
The miniature debate is a strawman.
>>All you do, is choose between five-eight options. Every time.
As opposed to one. Every time. As long as you're a fighter, rather than one of the favored (i.e. caster) classes that actually get to play a game with more tactical depth than tic-tac-toe.
>>This choice is hollow, most of the time.
Traditional, rules light RPGs usually have hollow choices. No matter how many different ways you describe a basic attack, you're still doing a basic attack. It's a veneer of choice.
>>You are not saying what your character does. You know, like, roleplaying.
Your limitations are not shared by others. Roleplaying and 'roll' playing are not mutually exclusive choices, nor are they mutually exclusive talents. Rule systems do not influence roleplaying. The difference between rules light and tactical rpgs is that in one you ONLY have roleplaying, whereas in the other one you have a roleplaying GAME.
No you don´t understand. In combat, you can´t describe an action. You just lay down the little card that you are holding in your hand. Most of the time you could do it randomly.
Roleplaying comes along every time you describe an action and the DM resolves it. That´s gone now for combat, and combat is a veeerry important part of D&D.
Really, if you played "I go up to him and hit him"-style, you are to be pitied.
It is one area where Exalted does a good job of encouraging more than "I hit him". The rules reward dramatic descriptions of actions with bonus dice and, if you succeed, essence (magical power points). As a result combat doesn't tend to have much in the way of simple sword play, but does have a fair amount of bouncing off walls, straining against opponents with blades locked together and broken scenery.
If I'm remembering right, the first D&D book that I read (2nd ed AD&D from the library) had movement listed in inches, all set up for miniatures.
If Necromancer Games wasn't on board with 4th ed I'd be much more likely to dismiss it, but I really enjoy their style and products, so I'm likely to give it a try, what with the amazon preorder deal and all.
@Settembrini - >>>No you don´t understand. In combat, you can´t describe an action.<<<
Oh? Where is that written in the rules? I don't remember seeing it anywhere in the Keep on the Shadowfell summary of the rules. How is having the option of using Mighty Cleaving instead of a basic attack stopping anyone from describing their actions? «I run up to the kobolds to slash them both across the chest.», «I slash the gnoll and slap the evil wizard across the mouth with a reverse swing», et cæte-fuckin'-ra.
Misunderstanding: No, it´s not about "fluff". It´s about saying what you do, not the prose. One could start another argument about the fluff/mood consequences of 4e design decisions, but that´s not what I´m aiming at.
The difference between playing a 3.5 Fighter and a 3.5 B9S character are HUGE. The one has the full plethora of codified and un-codified actions. My B9S characteres immediately stopped coming up with actions for themselves, as every single maneuvre was far superiour to anything (I´ve seen the same happening with players in my Wilderlands campaign who went the B9S route) I could have come up with.
And everything I´ve seen from 4e supports the idea it´ll be just like that